Curse

JR · Jan 19, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't feel that there's a problem with any of this. In fact I think that these unique items, and even the 'legendary' items like the henge sword are good for the game. I think that people need to stop focusing on 'perfect balance' and .001% advantages and all of that trite stuff. Arena.net is trying to appeal to many different interests, and one of those, like it or not, likes a wide variety of items. The character creation system that allows us to roll up PvP characters on demand and be competitive with some of the best weapons in the game is phenomenal. I feel that people who are getting worked up over a meaningless +2 (you can roll a staff you know) energy at a cost of being able to attack need to get over themselves and play the game. It's pretty good, you know.

The main problem I have with the HoD sword is not that it is in the game, its the fact that it was taken out. If it was still available to craft at a measly cost (like the Firey Flame Spitter etc), I would have very little quarrel at all with it. It almost feels like Anet didn't finish the job of removing it. And as it is a highly desirable item that is only available to buy off other players, I don't see the price going anywhere but up.

My argument about it being 'imbalanced', however slightly, is not really the basis for my wanting it gone. It is just justification of Anet finishing the job and removing it entirely.

generik · Jan 19, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Just for the record my stance on the HoD sword and "h4x" helm is that PvEers should have MORE of these items, *not* less.

Let's just face it, nobody plays this game for quests or missions. Go to ToA and try to find a group that is heading for a UW quest run, or go to DWC and try to find a quest group for say.. Killroy Stonekins.

People are all going to single you out, and make you realise what a fool you have been to even think of that.

It is farmers, farmers, and more farmers everywhere.

Why?

Because playing the game normally gives ZERO rewards. Nada. Zilch. Nil. Absolutely NOTHING. I say again, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

That's why people farm Sorrow's furnace. Or UW. Or FoW. Because in these places there are supposedly "good" weapons.

How about this, have certain weapons that are marginally better than arena standards along the lines of the helm or the sword, and make them items that cannot be used in the arenas.

How hard would that be?

I know for sure it is trivial, at least they did it with presents and candy cane items, it can definitely be extended to weapons as well.

Why not?

I sure as hell hope Anet has some really brilliant ideas for Chapter 2, because if at the end of the day all we see is just "Look! New gold sinks! Erh humph! PvE idiots, start your grinding! This is your next goal!", I am just going to call it quits.

Let's face it, the only thing that is crippling PvE right now is PvP. It is like a disease, a cancer that I never partook in, but somewhat hampering our PvE experiences.

Shadow Wonder · Jan 19, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

how does HoD sword look like then? o.O

aB- · Jan 19, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Wonder

how does HoD sword look like then? o.O

If you are talking about pure looks, it looks like a short sword. If you want the stats:

14-21 damage (?)
+5 energy

Goonter · Jan 19, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

I dont really want or care that other people have these swords. But it is suspicious that an item that was once available to everyone is now exclusive. It doesn’t drop, you can’t craft it, and you must by it from someone that got it while the getting was good.
It’s not being removed so it’s okay to have. If it’s ok to have, why the hell is it exclusive?
It doesn’t make since to anyone that thinks about it.
If you got it or you just roll with the punches then it’s not your problem. But if you want that edge, you must do what those have done - spend weeks grinding for the cash to get it.
This is against the philosophy of the game to my knowledge.
You don’t farm for edge, you farm for style.

Like I said, it doesn’t bother me so much because Im dont need this item. But I do find it suspicious.

Is it wrong or imposable to change the sword so the bonus mods only work when you meet the weapon requirements?
Say it has a req.9. You put 9 points in swordsmanship you get +5 energy.
At least for this weapon because it was designed for warriors that maybe wanted a little extra energy.

theclam · Jan 19, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Here's my stance on the HoD sword:

1. Make it available. Both for Roleplaying and PvP-only characters. GW is not about making uber-loot available to the richest 5% of the playerbase. It's about making it available to everyone.

or

2. If you can't make it available, then remove it from the game.

Reks · Jan 19, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

I have an HoD sword, but I don't feel any more superior than the next guy.

I'm just gonna view it as it is. A piece of GW history.

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

My argument about it being 'imbalanced', however slightly, is not really the basis for my wanting it gone. It is just justification of Anet finishing the job and removing it entirely.

My arguement is that the marginal benefit that would come from removing these items would be grossly overshadowed by the backlash such a change would make. I would agree that taking it off of that crafter was a mistake - though I don't believe they took it off because they thought it was imbalanced - but removing existing copies would be a disaster that there's no reason for them to walk into. This goes doubly for unconditional damage weapons, I can guarantee you that everyone who has one is proud of it and would absolutely freak out if it was removed. The unconditional weapons are a bigger problem, because the +energy sword or whatever can have replacements put in the game at some point. Unconditional weapons cannot.

In short: removing non-disruptive uberloot will cause more trouble than it's worth.

Peace,
-CxE

widds2v · Jan 19, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

They cant remove them. A very small percentage of GW plays only for pvp. GW will slowly over time turn into a regular mmog where special equipment will give you an edge, only because if they don't all they have on their hands is counterstrike, no depth to it at all. ANET knows they need to give 85% of the game something to strive for because they'll never be in a high ranked ladder guild where all that matters is pvp. Just look in the major cities at primetime, how many people sit around trying to trade stuff?

Two April Mornings · Jan 19, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

has anyone honestly ever been devastated by the 20/20 rockmolder orHOD sword? the only thing that sword seems to be really used for is farming, adn teh only thing it upsets are ataaxes and otheres of the sort. It doesn't really upset the game.

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by widds2v

They cant remove them. A very small percentage of GW plays only for pvp. GW will slowly over time turn into a regular mmog where special equipment will give you an edge, only because if they don't all they have on their hands is counterstrike, no depth to it at all.

Er, other way around, counterstrike is the game with depth, not itemquest. Itemquest PvP is perhaps the most shallow and pointless thing in existance. I think it's incredibly unlikely that the game will ultimately turn into an itemquest game where those with the best loot win, it just isn't in the core model.

Of course, there are a lot of people out there who desperately want Guild Wars to be item quest, so I could be wrong and someone at NCSoft could pull an executive decision. Who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

has anyone honestly ever been devastated by the 20/20 rockmolder orHOD sword? the only thing that sword seems to be really used for is farming, adn teh only thing it upsets are ataaxes and otheres of the sort. It doesn't really upset the game.

Well PvE balance is a whole lot harder than PvP balance (the mobs can't change), but a whole lot less important...the PvE population lives for imbalance infact. Makes the whole job kinda tricky, because you want to balance it enough that it doesn't get silly, but if it's *too* balanced people just complain. Anyway...

Devastated by the energy sword? I did kill someone with an energy sword in a build that featured Order of Pain. That was pretty funny, even if a wand would have sufficed. Mostly the point of the energy sword is for the second focus set, the sword and a +15/-1 focus, to let you keep the 20% enchanting when you focus swap for more energy. It's pretty blah besides that, since you're almost always better off with a staff on your main set.

The debate isn't about how much or even *if* anything is upset by the existance of the energy sword or any other extinct loot. It's over whether such things should even exist. Ultimately it's some ideology up against a wall of pragmatism that is running a company and an online game, and the net result that you'll see time and again is that you don't break things unless they absolutely have to be. It just isn't worth the mess otherwise.

Peace,
-CxE

Fyre Brand · Jan 19, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My arguement is that the marginal benefit that would come from removing these items would be grossly overshadowed by the backlash such a change would make. I would agree that taking it off of that crafter was a mistake - though I don't believe they took it off because they thought it was imbalanced - but removing existing copies would be a disaster that there's no reason for them to walk into. This goes doubly for unconditional damage weapons, I can guarantee you that everyone who has one is proud of it and would absolutely freak out if it was removed. The unconditional weapons are a bigger problem, because the +energy sword or whatever can have replacements put in the game at some point. Unconditional weapons cannot.

In short: removing non-disruptive uberloot will cause more trouble than it's worth.

Peace,
-CxE

I am mostly on the boat with Jr but I do like the points you make and I think they are more balanced. I never realized the hex helm could have the affect it does in pvp. Since I don't pvp much I only had the perspective of its usefulness in missions and hunting. I wouldn't want it removed either, but definitely it needs balanced.

For the items I have mixed feelings. I have played online games for around 4 years now and nothing sucks worse than having your items or skills nerfed not just for balance, but for the common good of the community. I will address and give my thoughts on a couple items.

1. Unconditional Damage Weapons: These need to be modified. They need to have a randomly assigned -5E or -10AR or -1 health regen assigned to them. They are the most drastically out of balance items I can think of. I wouldn't want them removed, but modified. ANet has already shown that they little difficulty modified existing software objects.

2. HoD Sword (and other items): I agree it was a mistake to totally remove these items. The sword itself can be imbalancing. Most "in the box" thinkers only look at the 5E and refer to 1 more Word cast or what not, but there are other ways for this to be used. Just one example is a farming smite warrior that can now cast 25E spells while wearing better armour than Gladiators. If you start to consider other possiblities it's not as weak a weapon as the owners claim. I think a good idea here would be to make it collectable with rarer items in a difficult spot (such as fire islands). Just like the Crimson Carapace shield was moved to the desert and given Bleached Shells as the requirement. If the drop probability were lowered for a ring of fire collector piece (or in the UW or FoW, it doesn't matter) and a large number required for collection then this would help keep it's value high and promote it's rarity. There are other options than just removing it all together or not letting it be collected any longer.

3. 20/20 Rockmolder: I think I have the name right but if not I'm sure you know the item I refer to. This is the most irritating one for me. It would be so easy for ANet to modify without affecting availability. It isn't right that after testing and release the item was determined to imbalanced and then adjusted without adjusting previous iterations. I'm not insensitive to the fact that some people would lose money, but this should just be evened out.

My main point is that there are items that need to be addressed specifically, but I think there are solutions in the middle of removing them all together or only letting some people have them with others having no chance to obtain them. One of Jr's most pertinent points, to me, is that if the game truly is focused on skills then there should be a better balance to these items.

Ensign ~ I know some items aren't available to a PvP build, but an account holder does have the option to build an RP character into a PvP character. In that same logic it is much easier for a PvP slot to unlock and use a Superior Absorption rune compared to an RP character, but if that RP warrior wanted to he could unlock that SupAbs rune and make a PvP warrior to use it.

Tortoise · Jan 19, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

My personal stance on the HoD and other 'overpowered' weapons is mostly the same as Ensign. The HoD sword makes a marginal difference and although 2 extra energy does make a difference it only makes a very marginal difference. Are some matches won because of the HoD sword? Yes, some are and because of that the sword clearly is unbalanced. Let's face it: the sword beats any possible other combo out there. I once had one but I accidently merchanted it. (You can laugh now).

At first I didn't understand why they took it out. Well, with hindsight it's pretty obvious why they took it out of the game: because both staves and wands became utter crap because of them. Should they be put back in? No, they should not.

Is it fair however to leave them in? Well, in all honesty: no, it is not fair the sword is left in the game. It is an imbalance and no matter how you turn it stays an imbalance. Is it however fair to take them away from their owners now? No, it is not. Some people have spend a lot of time and effort to get one and that time and effort should not be in vein. Taking them out now will cause alot of harm. Although one could wonder: Can the momentary grief from taking them out be compared to having the imbalance stay till the end of GW?

Anyhow, all of this does not change the fact that Anet should've removed ALL existing copies as soon as they deleted it from the crafter. Back in those days the HoD sword wasn't a big deal. Noone had payed extravagant amounts to get one and taking them out for the cause of balance would have been understandable and wouldve caused little grief. Anet made the wrong choice here and seeing how they reacted to the SoA axe shows me they probably won't make that mistake again.

The ones that don't have an HoD sword now are the victims, but nothing is gonna change that, because the imbalance caused by the sword can be overcome and the harm in taking them out now, or putting them back in is too big. If it's a comfort: if I hadn't merchanted my sword I probably would've sold it for a pretty penny now eventhough I mostly pvp nowadays. Really, the extra 2 energy isn't gonna cost ya the World Title or anything... If it'll cost you one match in tombs you can already consider yourself 'unlucky'.

And about the 20/20 rockmolder. I heard that it is just a typo and that it hasn't actually got the 20/20 effect.

[Edit] and about the uncoditional weapons: If you just take a 15over50 and a 20under50 you basically have an unconditional weapon too.

Uzul · Jan 19, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

basically i agree with ensign, the hodsword is far less an issue than the unconditional weapons and the hod helmet (helmet discussion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=109255
) and removing it now will definately "piss" people off who invested big amounts of crafting material (the yellow one) on it / might scare away possible chapter 2 buyers.

there is no need to have a hod sword to be competitive in 99.9% of all battles (pretty sure one could make up a situation where you can squeeze in one more healing seed and the last 2 seconds will keep your hero alive...notice that it has to be +5 energy AND the 20% enchants that let you win) if you want to have enchantment-improvement with a normal offhand item: use axe/sword of enchanting and you are set - those 5 energy might be help useful - but if you NEED those 5 energy to see yourself able to compete then you might take a look at how efficent you can play your current profession - maybe you should spend the time to get +5 on your skill instead your maximum energy.

anyone who doesn't care about pvp but cares about this sword beeing exclusive: you can farm place X or even Y which is slightly more north but a bit deeper in the ground without 20% longer enchantments - and if you prefer that mod - use an axe or sword that you like to look at all the time.
if you die without the +5 energy you will most likely die with it as well.

at the end it all comes to one point: the hod sword won't make up for lack of skill - experience and knowlegde regaring the game, all available skills and the build you are running. it won't help you against good intuition, reflexes, better latency with the servers, ... i could go on and on but i think everyone with half a brain could understand where this is going.

#ot_talk:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

[...] And about the 20/20 rockmolder. I heard that it is just a typo and that it hasn't actually got the 20/20 effect.

oh it works. with a falchion of enchanting (which looks way better then this short toothpick from the henge) alone i wouldn't be able to chain my own aegis. and it seriously beats the 10% recharge - i counted all faster recharges i got for 50 shielding hands. compared to a 10% smiting staff i get my recharge far more often.

i am going to re-test with a flamespitter, just to see if i would get the same recharge that i have with 10/10 wands.

whoever reads this: if you still think your rockmolder doesn't work - i need one for my mesmer on the 2nd account and will buy it for a couple plat ^^

7am, please bear with any typos.

edited syntax error

generik · Jan 19, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

My personal stance on the HoD and other 'overpowered' weapons is mostly the same as Ensign. The HoD sword makes a marginal difference and although 2 extra energy does make a difference it only makes a very marginal difference. Are some matches won because of the HoD sword? Yes, some are and because of that the sword clearly is unbalanced. Let's face it: the sword beats any possible other combo out there. I once had one but I accidently merchanted it. (You can laugh now).
- snip -

I won't say that I have too much of a life, but you really exaggerate too much. Wow, from a simple +5 energy sword you made it into a SUPER WEAPON! A weapon with which the HoH can be held for days!

Please, just let it pass, we'll see what Anet will do.

Personally I will just stop playing GW if they took it out, this game is already getting old, let's just say sacrificing PvE for the sake of PvP yet again is really going to be the last straw.

cataphract · Jan 19, 2006, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by King's Spectre

I'd be happy with a compromise:

Remove all the HOD swords from the game but replace them with a unique-skinned sword. This way you get them out of the game, but wouldn’t mess over the people saved up and purchased one to stay competitive.

pardon my french, but this is load of bull droppings. i do not need the HoD sword to stay competitive. i do not need the sword at all. but i like it, i saved up for it, i payed 160+40 to have it with 20% enchants mod and i make good money wielding it. as for pvp - i get +2 energy than a monk with Insightful 20/20 healing staff of Enchanting, but i don't get the luxury to attack.

imbalanced? no way.

cataphract · Jan 19, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

The reason as to why someone would grind 300k gold to have 5 more energy than another setups still baffles me. Give me one good reason why it is worth 300k to have 5 more energy.

it's the same reason people buy BMW's, Rolex watches, (insert status item here) and fissure armor.

Makkert · Jan 19, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

If you remove the +5 energy, you may aswell just remove the sword entirely.

However, I agree. Henge swords and axes, 20% rockmoulders... They need to be taken out of the game if Anet wants to keep that "Skill over grind" motto.

Fully agree.

I have 2 unused 20/20 rockmolders and a HoD. if they will be nerfed to the bone, it will be a bit of a bummer for me. But I'd gladly take it because it would make the game balance better in the long run.
I've been fortunate enough to be given a HoD. For those that spend capitals on their HoD, I feel sorry. If they still would nerf it (not sure on that, but we'll see on the coming skillupdate round), it won't be the most elegant nerf in this game.
The 20-20 enchant axe was handled with more elegance (sp?).

Ensign · Jan 19, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

At first I didn't understand why they took it out. Well, with hindsight it's pretty obvious why they took it out of the game: because both staves and wands became utter crap because of them.

I wish people would stop playing the HoD sword up as some sort of elite uber-item that's the best option available no matter what. It simply is not. The weapon was not changed at the crafter because it was ultimate uber-loot. It was changed because they wanted to put more standardized, desirable modifiers on the weapons available at crafters - remember that they changed all the other weapon crafters as well to offer 'normal' weapons like the perfect hammers and swords available in Droknar's. The old denravi items that had their uses in one build or another became popular collector's items, and now they've been played up in people's minds that they're unparalleled uberloot. "Ultimate Caster Sword!" makes for a good ad when you're trying to sell one of these, but it really doesn't mean a damn thing.

Here's the rub - +5 energy is a relatively weak modifier. Maximum energy pool is seriously overrated in this game - it has its uses in letting you burst a little harder, or make better use of energy management by removing some time-sensitivity, but ultimately it doesn't do a whole lot. The other staff heads, +5 armor and +30 health, are much, much more valuable. In general a staff with the right upgrades is going to outperform a sword + focus setup due to stronger modifiers and the ability to attack.

The reason the sword is good / popular is because it lets you take a 20% enchanting weapon modifier in a weapon + focus setup, *without* giving up the benefits of a staff head (even if it is the weakest one). In practice it is a useful alternative for characters who don't have a useful staff available (such as PvE monks who can't get a 20/20 healing staff), or who are locked out of staves because they either need a special focus (55 farmers), or can't afford the fast casting modifier (spikers). On a PvP character, as mentioned, the best general use for the sword is on your first focus swap (-1 pip regen) to maintain the 20% enchanting while getting the energy boost.

If you really want to use a weapon that doesn't let you attack as your main, the old henge axe is the strongest anti-spike option available, while the strongest weapon for general usage is the Fiery Flame Spitter, particularly if you're using an energy elite that can benefit from a fast recharge (if you're using Offering of Blood at 10 spec, for instance, the Flame Spitter is worth around 2.5 energy per minute from the recharge bonuses. The first time it triggers on an energy elite it has already far surpassed any value you'd have gotten out of an energy sword).

But all of this is an old man rambling. The point I wanted to make was that the weapon was not pulled from the game for being overpowered. It was pulled for being non-standard, when all of the crafters became standardized. That's all there is too it.

Peace,
-CxE

cataphract · Jan 19, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nater

So we're all in majority agreement that there's no advantage to having a HoD sword?

there isn't one. the HoD sword is a status symbol.